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	<title>Comments on: The Next Step in Process Modeling</title>
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	<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/</link>
	<description>New Rules for a New IT World</description>
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		<title>By: Cheap apartments apartment house rent</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-24734</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheap apartments apartment house rent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-24734</guid>
		<description>[...]cheap apartments, apartment cheap rent, low cost rental and student housing[...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;]cheap apartments, apartment cheap rent, low cost rental and student&nbsp;housing[&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: aids information and aids related web catalog</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-22029</link>
		<dc:creator>aids information and aids related web catalog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Two-way translations that perfectly preserve the structure of the higher-level model (in this case BPMN) are just one element of the solution. But even with tools implementing such translations, stakeholders would need to follow strict guidelines to ensure that they do not break what has been done at a higher level (BPMN) when they do modifications at the lower level (BPEL), and vice-versa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two-way translations that perfectly preserve the structure of the higher-level model (in this case <span class="caps">BPMN</span>) are just one element of the solution. But even with tools implementing such translations, stakeholders would need to follow strict guidelines to ensure that they do not break what has been done at a higher level (<span class="caps">BPMN</span>) when they do modifications at the lower level (<span class="caps">BPEL</span>), and&nbsp;vice-versa.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BPMS Watch &#187; Roundtripping Update</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-14901</link>
		<dc:creator>BPMS Watch &#187; Roundtripping Update</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 02:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-14901</guid>
		<description>[...] If you follow that topic, you probably know that Yi Gao of Seattle startup eClarus and Marlon Dumas of Queensland University of Technology are basically the two guys in the world who know what they&#8217;re talking about.Â  Way back in February, when I was still blogging on Ismael&#8217;s site, I posted on the roundtripping problem.Â  You can find that thread here on BPMS Watch or here at IT&#124;Redux. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] If you follow that topic, you probably know that Yi Gao of Seattle startup eClarus and Marlon Dumas of Queensland University of Technology are basically the two guys in the world who know what they&#8217;re talking about.Â  Way back in February, when I was still blogging on Ismael&#8217;s site, I posted on the roundtripping problem.Â  You can find that thread here on <span class="caps">BPMS</span> Watch or here at <span class="caps">IT</span>|Redux.&nbsp;[&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Yi Gao</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-14896</link>
		<dc:creator>Yi Gao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 22:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-14896</guid>
		<description>Bruce and Marlon,

In the first release of eClarus Process Modeler we have solved the Class 2 practically, even though the translation can be fine tuned.

Class 1 can be solved using simple pattern matching. 
With synchronous links, simple pattern match is not enough. We use a flow analysis technique (we call it &quot;Static Flow Token Analysis&quot;) to identify those links. And our tool can translate them to &quot;readable BPEL&quot; if it can be. If you are interested, we can discuss more offline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce and&nbsp;Marlon,</p>
<p>In the first release of eClarus Process Modeler we have solved the Class 2 practically, even though the translation can be fine&nbsp;tuned.</p>
<p>Class 1 can be solved using simple pattern matching.<br />
With synchronous links, simple pattern match is not enough. We use a flow analysis technique (we call it &#8220;Static Flow Token Analysis&#8221;) to identify those links. And our tool can translate them to &#8220;readable <span class="caps">BPEL</span>&#8221; if it can be. If you are interested, we can discuss more&nbsp;offline.</p>
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		<title>By: Bits &#38; Notes</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-5415</link>
		<dc:creator>Bits &#38; Notes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-5415</guid>
		<description>[...] This is a copy of a very interesting answer... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] This is a copy of a very interesting answer&#8230;&nbsp;[&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Tomasz Tomkowicz</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-722</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomasz Tomkowicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Mar 2006 10:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-722</guid>
		<description>Ismael,

I think that the basic premises of MDA are directly link with the efforts of transformation BPMN to BPEL. We need though the methodology that describes how the business logic should be maintained in a technology neutral model that is understandable and potentially controllable by the business users (BPMN). We need the framework that separates business functionality concerns from implementation time technical concerns, such as scalability, security, and granularity, quality of services. We need to define the process how business users could model their business requirements in a fairly straightforward set of semantics dedicated to business requirements. Those requirements finally could then be instantiated by IT people using BPEL on IT infrastructure appropriate to the needs of the business community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ismael,</p>
<p>I think that the basic premises of <span class="caps">MDA</span> are directly link with the efforts of transformation <span class="caps">BPMN</span> to <span class="caps">BPEL</span>. We need though the methodology that describes how the business logic should be maintained in a technology neutral model that is understandable and potentially controllable by the business users (<span class="caps">BPMN</span>). We need the framework that separates business functionality concerns from implementation time technical concerns, such as scalability, security, and granularity, quality of services. We need to define the process how business users could model their business requirements in a fairly straightforward set of semantics dedicated to business requirements. Those requirements finally could then be instantiated by <span class="caps">IT</span> people using <span class="caps">BPEL</span> on <span class="caps">IT</span> infrastructure appropriate to the needs of the business&nbsp;community.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Silver</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-684</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Silver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-684</guid>
		<description>Marlon,

Once again, I think you&#039;re absolutely on the right track.  Class 1 is probably of little practical interest for process designers who want to import into a BPEL design tool.  Solving Class 2 would be a giant step forward. Please keep us posted on your progress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marlon,</p>
<p>Once again, I think you&#8217;re absolutely on the right track.  Class 1 is probably of little practical interest for process designers who want to import into a <span class="caps">BPEL</span> design tool.  Solving Class 2 would be a giant step forward. Please keep us posted on your&nbsp;progress.</p>
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		<title>By: Ismael Ghalimi</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-682</link>
		<dc:creator>Ismael Ghalimi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-682</guid>
		<description>Tomasz,

I am not surprised. I have never been a big fan of MDA...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tomasz,</p>
<p>I am not surprised. I have never been a big fan of&nbsp;<span class="caps">MDA</span>&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Marlon Dumas</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-679</link>
		<dc:creator>Marlon Dumas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-679</guid>
		<description>Sorry, my previous posting went out by mistake before I could conclude it. My conclusion was going to be that for the second and third classes of BPMN models mentioned above, reversible translations are possible, while for the first class of BPMN models, a reversible translation would be very difficult. Note that the first class of models is larger than the second, and the second is larger than the third.

The second class of models is fairly large, and my hunch is that it includes almost any meaningful BPMN diagram that people will be drawing out there. So in summary, there are good hopes that in a not-too-distant future, there will be some reversible BPMN-to-BPEL translations that generate readable BPEL code and cover fairly large classes of models. But there is a bumpy road ahead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, my previous posting went out by mistake before I could conclude it. My conclusion was going to be that for the second and third classes of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> models mentioned above, reversible translations are possible, while for the first class of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> models, a reversible translation would be very difficult. Note that the first class of models is larger than the second, and the second is larger than the&nbsp;third.</p>
<p>The second class of models is fairly large, and my hunch is that it includes almost any meaningful <span class="caps">BPMN</span> diagram that people will be drawing out there. So in summary, there are good hopes that in a not-too-distant future, there will be some reversible <span class="caps">BPMN</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPEL</span> translations that generate readable <span class="caps">BPEL</span> code and cover fairly large classes of models. But there is a bumpy road&nbsp;ahead.</p>
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		<title>By: Marlon Dumas</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-678</link>
		<dc:creator>Marlon Dumas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-678</guid>
		<description>Hi Bruce,

I am sorry for the &quot;runic script&quot; used in the technical report describing the BPMN-to-BPEL translation. This is a notation used by computer science academics, which is our initial target audience, as we want to get feedback regarding the correctness of the translation. But in the interest of bridging academia with industry, we are working on implementing the proposed translation as an open-source tool, so that tool vendors or open-source projects can pick things from there. You&#039;re right about the lack of a standard XML serialisation of BPMN and your XPDL suggestion is a very good one. We have already started the work using an XML serialisation of the ILOG&#039;s BPMN serialisation for which the documentation (in latin script) is publicly available. You will be right to say that this is a proprietary notation, but I can bet my dearest fifty cents that the final XML serialisation of BPMN, whether based on MOF/XMI or not, will be &quot;isomorphic&quot; to ILOG&#039;s BPMN serialisation (and to other serialisations available out there). So it will be possible to define simple transformations between the standard and the &quot;proprietary&quot; serialisations. After all, they will hopefully be just two serialisations of the same language. The real problem is the BPMN-to-BPEL part.

There are classes of models for which a reversible  BPMN-to-BPEL-and-back translation is possible. We can define three such classes of models:

1) The class of &quot;BPMN models without livelocks&quot;: If a BPMN model (with any topology) is not &quot;divergent&quot;, we can translate it to BPEL using BPEL&#039;s &quot;event handler&quot; feature. You don&#039;t want to read the resulting code though, because it&#039;s just a bunch of event handlers throwing message events at each other. This is pretty much what we show in &lt;a href=&quot;http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00002976&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this paper&lt;/a&gt; (also in &quot;runic script&quot;) where we explain what is meant by a model without livelocks and we give an example of a livelock.

2) The class of &quot;Synchronising BPMN models&quot;: We are currently working on another paper in runic script that contains an algorithm which can determine whether a BPMN model can be translated into BPEL structured activities and control links (without using event handlers, which is what causes the mess). This algorithm could be used for the purpose that you describe: we could allow modellers to write their models as they wish, but on the background we run the algorithm and the algorithm will come back and tell you: Yes, this BPMN model can be translated to &quot;readable BPEL&quot;, or no it can&#039;t.

3) The class of &quot;Structured BPMN models&quot;. Structured BPMN models (where every &quot;splitting&quot; gateway has a corresponding &quot;joining/merging&quot; gateway) can be easily translated into BPEL process definitions containing only BPEL structured activities. An algorithm for determining whether a BPMN process model is structured or not is not difficult to write. Some academic folks from Austria and Denmark have written such an algorithm in &lt;a href=&quot;http://wi.wu-wien.ac.at/home/mendling/XML4BPM2006/XML4BPM-Mendling.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;another paper&lt;/a&gt; written in &quot;runic script&quot;. They do not consider the full spectrum of BPMN constructs, but it could be a point of departure for tool implementors.

There are some &quot;small&quot; glitches though when translating BPMN to BPEL: they have to do with the fact that BPMN has a notion of sub-process and BPEL does not, but this is not difficult to circunvent and it is discussed in the BPMN specification. Also, BPMN distinguishes a lot of types of events, while BPEL doesn&#039;t, so some nuances in the BPMN model may be lost on the way down to BPEL. But we can say that these are details and they can probably be resolved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi&nbsp;Bruce,</p>
<p>I am sorry for the &#8220;runic script&#8221; used in the technical report describing the <span class="caps">BPMN</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPEL</span> translation. This is a notation used by computer science academics, which is our initial target audience, as we want to get feedback regarding the correctness of the translation. But in the interest of bridging academia with industry, we are working on implementing the proposed translation as an open-source tool, so that tool vendors or open-source projects can pick things from there. You&#8217;re right about the lack of a standard <span class="caps">XML</span> serialisation of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and your <span class="caps">XPDL</span> suggestion is a very good one. We have already started the work using an <span class="caps">XML</span> serialisation of the <span class="caps">ILOG</span>&#8217;s <span class="caps">BPMN</span> serialisation for which the documentation (in latin script) is publicly available. You will be right to say that this is a proprietary notation, but I can bet my dearest fifty cents that the final <span class="caps">XML</span> serialisation of <span class="caps">BPMN</span>, whether based on <span class="caps">MOF</span>/<span class="caps">XMI</span> or not, will be &#8220;isomorphic&#8221; to <span class="caps">ILOG</span>&#8217;s <span class="caps">BPMN</span> serialisation (and to other serialisations available out there). So it will be possible to define simple transformations between the standard and the &#8220;proprietary&#8221; serialisations. After all, they will hopefully be just two serialisations of the same language. The real problem is the <span class="caps">BPMN</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPEL</span>&nbsp;part.</p>
<p>There are classes of models for which a reversible  <span class="caps">BPMN</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPEL</span>-and-back translation is possible. We can define three such classes of&nbsp;models:</p>
<p>1) The class of &#8220;<span class="caps">BPMN</span> models without livelocks&#8221;: If a <span class="caps">BPMN</span> model (with any topology) is not &#8220;divergent&#8221;, we can translate it to <span class="caps">BPEL</span> using <span class="caps">BPEL</span>&#8217;s &#8220;event handler&#8221; feature. You don&#8217;t want to read the resulting code though, because it&#8217;s just a bunch of event handlers throwing message events at each other. This is pretty much what we show in <a href="http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00002976" rel="nofollow">this paper</a> (also in &#8220;runic script&#8221;) where we explain what is meant by a model without livelocks and we give an example of a&nbsp;livelock.</p>
<p>2) The class of &#8220;Synchronising <span class="caps">BPMN</span> models&#8221;: We are currently working on another paper in runic script that contains an algorithm which can determine whether a <span class="caps">BPMN</span> model can be translated into <span class="caps">BPEL</span> structured activities and control links (without using event handlers, which is what causes the mess). This algorithm could be used for the purpose that you describe: we could allow modellers to write their models as they wish, but on the background we run the algorithm and the algorithm will come back and tell you: Yes, this <span class="caps">BPMN</span> model can be translated to &#8220;readable <span class="caps">BPEL</span>&#8221;, or no it&nbsp;can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>3) The class of &#8220;Structured <span class="caps">BPMN</span> models&#8221;. Structured <span class="caps">BPMN</span> models (where every &#8220;splitting&#8221; gateway has a corresponding &#8220;joining/merging&#8221; gateway) can be easily translated into <span class="caps">BPEL</span> process definitions containing only <span class="caps">BPEL</span> structured activities. An algorithm for determining whether a <span class="caps">BPMN</span> process model is structured or not is not difficult to write. Some academic folks from Austria and Denmark have written such an algorithm in <a href="http://wi.wu-wien.ac.at/home/mendling/XML4BPM2006/XML4BPM-Mendling.pdf" rel="nofollow">another paper</a> written in &#8220;runic script&#8221;. They do not consider the full spectrum of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> constructs, but it could be a point of departure for tool&nbsp;implementors.</p>
<p>There are some &#8220;small&#8221; glitches though when translating <span class="caps">BPMN</span> to <span class="caps">BPEL</span>: they have to do with the fact that <span class="caps">BPMN</span> has a notion of sub-process and <span class="caps">BPEL</span> does not, but this is not difficult to circunvent and it is discussed in the <span class="caps">BPMN</span> specification. Also, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> distinguishes a lot of types of events, while <span class="caps">BPEL</span> doesn&#8217;t, so some nuances in the <span class="caps">BPMN</span> model may be lost on the way down to <span class="caps">BPEL</span>. But we can say that these are details and they can probably be&nbsp;resolved.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Silver</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-610</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Silver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 01:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-610</guid>
		<description>Marlon,

I was previously unaware of your academic work on this topic but I think it is absolutely crucial and want to encourage you in it.  I went to the paper you cite in your post, and despite the fact that it is largely written in some form of indecipherable runic script, the gist of it seems that you have discovered an iterative algorithm for turning BPMN into &quot;readable&quot; BPEL by analyzing basic patterns, with the caveat that there are some non-standard patterns that perhaps don&#039;t work.  The current version of your tool does not work with BPMN -- alas it has no schema -- but a simple XML-based list of activities and connectors.  Since we mortals live in a world of tools, I might suggest as an alternative something like XPDL 2.0, which some BPMN tools can create and which provide the information your algorithm needs.

I am also interested in a class of tools, such as I imagine the Intalio BPMN Designer to be when it is finally released, where BPMN is a real-time graphical facade for BPEL code, such that if it violates BPEL it probably can&#039;t be drawn.  You might say that&#039;s a much easier problem since it excludes lots of possible BPMN topologies, but to me it is the only one of interest since if you can&#039;t execute it, what&#039;s the point?  Do you think for such a class of models, the reverse translation problem is significantly easier, or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marlon,</p>
<p>I was previously unaware of your academic work on this topic but I think it is absolutely crucial and want to encourage you in it.  I went to the paper you cite in your post, and despite the fact that it is largely written in some form of indecipherable runic script, the gist of it seems that you have discovered an iterative algorithm for turning <span class="caps">BPMN</span> into &#8220;readable&#8221; <span class="caps">BPEL</span> by analyzing basic patterns, with the caveat that there are some non-standard patterns that perhaps don&#8217;t work.  The current version of your tool does not work with <span class="caps">BPMN</span>&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;alas it has no schema&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;but a simple <span class="caps">XML</span>-based list of activities and connectors.  Since we mortals live in a world of tools, I might suggest as an alternative something like <span class="caps">XPDL</span> 2.0, which some <span class="caps">BPMN</span> tools can create and which provide the information your algorithm&nbsp;needs.</p>
<p>I am also interested in a class of tools, such as I imagine the Intalio <span class="caps">BPMN</span> Designer to be when it is finally released, where <span class="caps">BPMN</span> is a real-time graphical facade for <span class="caps">BPEL</span> code, such that if it violates <span class="caps">BPEL</span> it probably can&#8217;t be drawn.  You might say that&#8217;s a much easier problem since it excludes lots of possible <span class="caps">BPMN</span> topologies, but to me it is the only one of interest since if you can&#8217;t execute it, what&#8217;s the point?  Do you think for such a class of models, the reverse translation problem is significantly easier, or&nbsp;not?</p>
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		<title>By: Tomasz Tomkowicz</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-577</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomasz Tomkowicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-577</guid>
		<description>Ismael,

Frankly, the problem I experienced is that behind the BPMN graphical elements, I cannot still find the correct XML document. Having tested some tools and trying to export and import the XML files, I encountered the crap files and not really the document that I can use. What about the interoperability promised by the OMG&#039;s MDA?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ismael,</p>
<p>Frankly, the problem I experienced is that behind the <span class="caps">BPMN</span> graphical elements, I cannot still find the correct <span class="caps">XML</span> document. Having tested some tools and trying to export and import the <span class="caps">XML</span> files, I encountered the crap files and not really the document that I can use. What about the interoperability promised by the <span class="caps">OMG</span>&#8217;s&nbsp;<span class="caps">MDA</span>?</p>
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		<title>By: Marlon Dumas</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-546</link>
		<dc:creator>Marlon Dumas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-546</guid>
		<description>I had similar experiences trying to generate BPEL from BPMN using a BPMN tool. There are basically two problems: first, much implemention details need to be added before hitting the &quot;export/convert&quot; button, thus raising the usual question of &quot;do you expect to turn your business analyst into a programmer or vice-versa?&quot;; second, sometimes the export is not possible or leads to invalid BPEL code, especially if you go too freely about connecting your nodes arbitrarily in the BPMN diagram.

The first question is one of methodology, and is more general to the whole MDA approach (not just BPMN-to-BPEL). High-level models need to be properly synchronized with lower-level views, and unless you have one-to-one mappings (which would be surprising), this is not easy to support. Two-way translations that perfectly preserve the structure of the higher-level model (in this case BPMN) are just one element of the solution. But even with tools implementing such translations, stakeholders would need to follow strict guidelines to ensure that they do not break what has been done at a higher level (BPMN) when they do modifications at the lower level (BPEL), and vice-versa. I think it will take a lot of time to get there since it entails getting people used to work in certain ways (not just technological issues, but methodological ones).

The second problem is probably solvable, but not as easy as it seems. If we restrict the structure of BPMN processes to e.g. structured ones, it is not hard to define translations that preserve the structure, so that a reverse translation that renders the original BPMN process is possible. If we lift these restrictions, things become more complex due to fundamental differences, as Tomasz points out. We have recently defined a BPMN-to-BPEL translation that can deal with BPMN graphs with arbitrary topology. In this translation, if the original graph is well-structured, the resulting BPEL code follows the structure of the original graph and everything works well. But if the BPMN graph is not structured, the translation generates rather convoluted BPEL code and the way back to BPMN would be far from easy. For those interested, see this &lt;a href=&quot;http://is.tm.tue.nl/staff/wvdaalst/BPMcenter/reports/2006/BPM-06-02.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;technical report&lt;/a&gt;.

An implementation of an earlier version of this translation is also available at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bpm.fit.qut.edu.au/projects/babel/tools/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BABEL tools page&lt;/a&gt; (it&#039;s called  SPM2BPEL). An improved version of the implementation incorporating the whole translation described in the technical report is underway and should be posted on the same page soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had similar experiences trying to generate <span class="caps">BPEL</span> from <span class="caps">BPMN</span> using a <span class="caps">BPMN</span> tool. There are basically two problems: first, much implemention details need to be added before hitting the &#8220;export/convert&#8221; button, thus raising the usual question of &#8220;do you expect to turn your business analyst into a programmer or vice-versa?&#8221;; second, sometimes the export is not possible or leads to invalid <span class="caps">BPEL</span> code, especially if you go too freely about connecting your nodes arbitrarily in the <span class="caps">BPMN</span>&nbsp;diagram.</p>
<p>The first question is one of methodology, and is more general to the whole <span class="caps">MDA</span> approach (not just <span class="caps">BPMN</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPEL</span>). High-level models need to be properly synchronized with lower-level views, and unless you have one-to-one mappings (which would be surprising), this is not easy to support. Two-way translations that perfectly preserve the structure of the higher-level model (in this case <span class="caps">BPMN</span>) are just one element of the solution. But even with tools implementing such translations, stakeholders would need to follow strict guidelines to ensure that they do not break what has been done at a higher level (<span class="caps">BPMN</span>) when they do modifications at the lower level (<span class="caps">BPEL</span>), and vice-versa. I think it will take a lot of time to get there since it entails getting people used to work in certain ways (not just technological issues, but methodological&nbsp;ones).</p>
<p>The second problem is probably solvable, but not as easy as it seems. If we restrict the structure of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> processes to e.g. structured ones, it is not hard to define translations that preserve the structure, so that a reverse translation that renders the original <span class="caps">BPMN</span> process is possible. If we lift these restrictions, things become more complex due to fundamental differences, as Tomasz points out. We have recently defined a <span class="caps">BPMN</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPEL</span> translation that can deal with <span class="caps">BPMN</span> graphs with arbitrary topology. In this translation, if the original graph is well-structured, the resulting <span class="caps">BPEL</span> code follows the structure of the original graph and everything works well. But if the <span class="caps">BPMN</span> graph is not structured, the translation generates rather convoluted <span class="caps">BPEL</span> code and the way back to <span class="caps">BPMN</span> would be far from easy. For those interested, see this <a href="http://is.tm.tue.nl/staff/wvdaalst/BPMcenter/reports/2006/BPM-06-02.pdf" rel="nofollow">technical&nbsp;report</a>.</p>
<p>An implementation of an earlier version of this translation is also available at the <a href="http://www.bpm.fit.qut.edu.au/projects/babel/tools/" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">BABEL</span> tools page</a> (it&#8217;s called  <span class="caps">SPM2BPEL</span>). An improved version of the implementation incorporating the whole translation described in the technical report is underway and should be posted on the same page&nbsp;soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Ismael Ghalimi</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>Ismael Ghalimi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 00:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-529</guid>
		<description>Thomas,

The added value is in getting an executable process implemented for a fraction of the cost of alternative approaches, such as writing J2EE or .Net code manually. Our experience shows us that in average, behind each BPMN graphical element, about ten lines of complex BPEL code get generated, while writing equivalent logic in Java would require about 100 lines of Java code. If you give me a tool that replaces 100 lines of code with a single box or arrow, I think I&#039;ll go for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas,</p>
<p>The added value is in getting an executable process implemented for a fraction of the cost of alternative approaches, such as writing <span class="caps">J2EE</span> or .Net code manually. Our experience shows us that in average, behind each <span class="caps">BPMN</span> graphical element, about ten lines of complex <span class="caps">BPEL</span> code get generated, while writing equivalent logic in Java would require about 100 lines of Java code. If you give me a tool that replaces 100 lines of code with a single box or arrow, I think I&#8217;ll go for&nbsp;it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomasz Tomkowicz</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomasz Tomkowicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-490</guid>
		<description>I agree with the academic world that the problem with BPMN-to-BPEL translations comes from &lt;a href=&quot;http://is.tm.tue.nl/staff/wvdaalst/BPMcenter/reports/2006/BPM-06-02.pdf&quot;&gt;fundamental differences&lt;/a&gt;. BPMN is graph-oriented, while BPEL is mainly block-structured.  What is more, my experience shows for the time being that in order to manage such a transformation, I would have to model in BPMN (using a BPM tool) almost all data, interaction elements, exception handling, etc. in order to generate an XML file. I am asking myself: where is the added value?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the academic world that the problem with <span class="caps">BPMN</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPEL</span> translations comes from <a href="http://is.tm.tue.nl/staff/wvdaalst/BPMcenter/reports/2006/BPM-06-02.pdf">fundamental differences</a>. <span class="caps">BPMN</span> is graph-oriented, while <span class="caps">BPEL</span> is mainly block-structured.  What is more, my experience shows for the time being that in order to manage such a transformation, I would have to model in <span class="caps">BPMN</span> (using a <span class="caps">BPM</span> tool) almost all data, interaction elements, exception handling, etc. in order to generate an <span class="caps">XML</span> file. I am asking myself: where is the added&nbsp;value?</p>
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		<title>By: Howard Smith</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-304</guid>
		<description>With a BPMS, no miracle has to occur. This is called Design Design Architecture (DDA). In a DDA, based on processes, processes a new executable abstract entity. There is no translation between BPMN and BPEL, becasuse they are just views onto the same executable entity - the PROCESS. I use capitals to indicate that PROCESSES are something really new. They come with their own vm for example. What we need are standards to define what a BPMS is, not a new meta-model for processes to link two languages that should have been aligned from the outset, BPMN and BPEL. The BPMN working group, which began in BPMI.org, went off the rails somewhat when it lost the link to execution. That was part of the original charter for BPMN at BPMI.org - but it was ackward for some modeling vendors, so they broke the link. And with BPML losing to BPEL, with BPEL out in OASIS-land, it was inevitable the two languages don&#039;t join up properly. But this does not matter. Because on a BPMS, a BPM 2.0 BPMS, BPMN and BPEL are just views onto the real thing, the PROCESS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With a <span class="caps">BPMS</span>, no miracle has to occur. This is called Design Design Architecture (<span class="caps">DDA</span>). In a <span class="caps">DDA</span>, based on processes, processes a new executable abstract entity. There is no translation between <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span>, becasuse they are just views onto the same executable entity - the <span class="caps">PROCESS</span>. I use capitals to indicate that <span class="caps">PROCESSES</span> are something really new. They come with their own vm for example. What we need are standards to define what a <span class="caps">BPMS</span> is, not a new meta-model for processes to link two languages that should have been aligned from the outset, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span>. The <span class="caps">BPMN</span> working group, which began in <span class="caps">BPMI</span>.org, went off the rails somewhat when it lost the link to execution. That was part of the original charter for <span class="caps">BPMN</span> at <span class="caps">BPMI</span>.org - but it was ackward for some modeling vendors, so they broke the link. And with <span class="caps">BPML</span> losing to <span class="caps">BPEL</span>, with <span class="caps">BPEL</span> out in <span class="caps">OASIS</span>-land, it was inevitable the two languages don&#8217;t join up properly. But this does not matter. Because on a <span class="caps">BPMS</span>, a <span class="caps">BPM</span> 2.0 <span class="caps">BPMS</span>, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span> are just views onto the real thing, the&nbsp;<span class="caps">PROCESS</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis D. McDonald</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis D. McDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2006 00:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-299</guid>
		<description>I wonder how much of the two-way transfer difficulty between BPMN and BPEL is based on the fact that business processes as modeled by the business analyst cannot possibly encapsulate all functionality required to drive system development. 

I base this not on experience with using such tools but on working with live business and IT clients. No one understands 100% of the picture of how a system should operate in terms of both automated and manual processes. One can argue that IT has the most comprehensive view -- they have to -- simply because they have to marshall all system resouces in support of business requirements. This may involve system functionality that is (appropriately) invisible to the business person. 

If this is the case, translating a model back to a form that is readable by the business analyst might have to include  boxes labeled â€œand then a  a miracle occursâ€ simply because IT has had to add processess unknown to the business person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how much of the two-way transfer difficulty between <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span> is based on the fact that business processes as modeled by the business analyst cannot possibly encapsulate all functionality required to drive system&nbsp;development. </p>
<p>I base this not on experience with using such tools but on working with live business and <span class="caps">IT</span> clients. No one understands 100% of the picture of how a system should operate in terms of both automated and manual processes. One can argue that <span class="caps">IT</span> has the most comprehensive view&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;they have to&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;simply because they have to marshall all system resouces in support of business requirements. This may involve system functionality that is (appropriately) invisible to the business&nbsp;person. </p>
<p>If this is the case, translating a model back to a form that is readable by the business analyst might have to include  boxes labeled â€œand then a  a miracle occursâ€ simply because <span class="caps">IT</span> has had to add processess unknown to the business&nbsp;person.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Silver</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-287</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Silver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-287</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think I meant to say there is no real example of going from BPMN to BPEL. I&#039;m sure it can be done -- for example, Intalio claims to use BPMN as their BPEL design tool -- but with most tools it&#039;s not easy. Because it forces the business analyst to supply implementation detail, it is somewhat orthogonal to what the analyst is trying to achieve, which is process documentation and optimization through simulation analysis.

My real point is that if BPMN is ever to become a bridge between business and IT by providing a skeleton BPEL design, the model (BPMN) has to stay in sync with changes made in the BPEL, which implies an unambiguous back-translation (i.e. BPEL-to-BPMN). It would be an interesting exercise and perhaps a good masters thesis topic for a student. Once OMG gives BPMN a schema you might even reduce the translation (in either direction) to XSLT. I certainly don&#039;t think the issue has anything to do with BPEL vs XPDL as an execution language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think I meant to say there is no real example of going from <span class="caps">BPMN</span> to <span class="caps">BPEL</span>. I&#8217;m sure it can be done&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;for example, Intalio claims to use <span class="caps">BPMN</span> as their <span class="caps">BPEL</span> design tool&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;but with most tools it&#8217;s not easy. Because it forces the business analyst to supply implementation detail, it is somewhat orthogonal to what the analyst is trying to achieve, which is process documentation and optimization through simulation&nbsp;analysis.</p>
<p>My real point is that if <span class="caps">BPMN</span> is ever to become a bridge between business and <span class="caps">IT</span> by providing a skeleton <span class="caps">BPEL</span> design, the model (<span class="caps">BPMN</span>) has to stay in sync with changes made in the <span class="caps">BPEL</span>, which implies an unambiguous back-translation (i.e. <span class="caps">BPEL</span>-to-<span class="caps">BPMN</span>). It would be an interesting exercise and perhaps a good masters thesis topic for a student. Once <span class="caps">OMG</span> gives <span class="caps">BPMN</span> a schema you might even reduce the translation (in either direction) to <span class="caps">XSLT</span>. I certainly don&#8217;t think the issue has anything to do with <span class="caps">BPEL</span> vs <span class="caps">XPDL</span> as an execution&nbsp;language.</p>
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		<title>By: Ricky Nuyens</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-286</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky Nuyens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-286</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t the interchangeability mentioned above between BPMN and BPEL the subject of BPDM. The Business Process Definition Metamodel is an upcoming OMG standard that exactly tries to cover this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the interchangeability mentioned above between <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span> the subject of <span class="caps">BPDM</span>. The Business Process Definition Metamodel is an upcoming <span class="caps">OMG</span> standard that exactly tries to cover&nbsp;this.</p>
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		<title>By: Rahima</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/comment-page-1/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>Rahima</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/03/the-next-step-in-process-modeling/#comment-282</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m new to the BPM field. When I read you paper, I understand that there is no real exemple that works using BPMN and BPEL in a straight line.  The complete translation from BPMN to BPEL and the reverse are not yet available. But what do you think about tools like JaWE and Shark, which use XPDL langage? It seems to solve translation&#039;s problem. Doesn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m new to the <span class="caps">BPM</span> field. When I read you paper, I understand that there is no real exemple that works using <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span> in a straight line.  The complete translation from <span class="caps">BPMN</span> to <span class="caps">BPEL</span> and the reverse are not yet available. But what do you think about tools like JaWE and Shark, which use <span class="caps">XPDL</span> langage? It seems to solve translation&#8217;s problem. Doesn&#8217;t&nbsp;it?</p>
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