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	<title>Comments on: Business User Perspective on UML, BPMN, and BPMS</title>
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	<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/</link>
	<description>New Rules for a New IT World</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey A. Solochek</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-24997</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey A. Solochek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-24997</guid>
		<description>What is your feedback regarding the subject of LSI? LSI is supposed to decide what is junk and which site has good quality content. I am told that Google is using LSI but I can't see a software program making this decision.

Jeffrey A. Solochek
http://www.nosugarcoating.info</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is your feedback regarding the subject of <span class="caps">LSI</span>? <span class="caps">LSI</span> is supposed to decide what is junk and which site has good quality content. I am told that Google is using <span class="caps">LSI</span> but I can&#8217;t see a software program making this&nbsp;decision.</p>
<p>Jeffrey A. Solochek<br />&nbsp;<a href="http://www.nosugarcoating.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.nosugarcoating.info</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gopi Bulusu</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-11136</link>
		<dc:creator>Gopi Bulusu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-11136</guid>
		<description>A very nice article indeed. There is a key difference between BPMN and BPEL, BPMN is more like a declarative language and can by itself form the basis for process modeling and implementation. 

On the other hand BPEL, is a complex language which tries to replace the common use of scripting languages like perl or python for quickly weaving together an application out of independent web services.

The comparison between UML and BPMN is more interesting, UML is really an extensible modeling language, in theory, BPMN can be modeled as a UML extension. BPMN on the otherhand is a solution for the very specific problem of visually modeling complex processes using a surprisingly simple notation. In some sense, BPMN can be to UML what HTML is to SGML.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very nice article indeed. There is a key difference between <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span>, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> is more like a declarative language and can by itself form the basis for process modeling and&nbsp;implementation. </p>
<p>On the other hand <span class="caps">BPEL</span>, is a complex language which tries to replace the common use of scripting languages like perl or python for quickly weaving together an application out of independent web&nbsp;services.</p>
<p>The comparison between <span class="caps">UML</span> and <span class="caps">BPMN</span> is more interesting, <span class="caps">UML</span> is really an extensible modeling language, in theory, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> can be modeled as a <span class="caps">UML</span> extension. <span class="caps">BPMN</span> on the otherhand is a solution for the very specific problem of visually modeling complex processes using a surprisingly simple notation. In some sense, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> can be to <span class="caps">UML</span> what <span class="caps">HTML</span> is to&nbsp;<span class="caps">SGML</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: IT&#124;Redux &#187; Who Needs a Complete BPMS</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-6256</link>
		<dc:creator>IT&#124;Redux &#187; Who Needs a Complete BPMS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 19:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-6256</guid>
		<description>[...] Recent discussions on BPMN and BPEL have created a level of activity rarely seen on these pages. The quality of interactions is outstanding, and I strongly encourage you to read through the comments of this post, and this older one contributed by Francis Ip. In the meantime, let me use the opportunity of our weekly BPM 2.0 post to shed some light on why BPMN and BPEL nicely complement each other, and who really needs a complete BPMS. Disclaimer: this post might upset some readers, especially towards the end, but I need to get some messages across, loud and clear. Consider yourself warned! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Recent discussions on <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span> have created a level of activity rarely seen on these pages. The quality of interactions is outstanding, and I strongly encourage you to read through the comments of this post, and this older one contributed by Francis Ip. In the meantime, let me use the opportunity of our weekly <span class="caps">BPM</span> 2.0 post to shed some light on why <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">BPEL</span> nicely complement each other, and who really needs a complete <span class="caps">BPMS</span>. Disclaimer: this post might upset some readers, especially towards the end, but I need to get some messages across, loud and clear. Consider yourself warned!&nbsp;[&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen A. White</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-6221</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen A. White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-6221</guid>
		<description>Francis,

Thanks for the article.

These types of discussions are useful. I have a couple of comments.

BPMN was not strictly a front-end for BPML/BPEL. We specifically decided not to create an execution language notation. BPMN was intended to be a generic way to define and communicate process models. At the same time, enough detail was included (but not required) so that it could be mapped to BPEL. Thus, we did not have a pure IT approach. The approach was two-pronged to bridge the traceability gap between process modeling and process execution. But business POV was considered key to the success of BPMN. Just reading the spec, however, might lead one to see the IT side of it as being dominant.

This leads to why we did not just use (and perhaps extend) UML Activity diagrams. UML, whether deserved or not, was not acceptable in business process modeling communities. It didn't matter what the capabilities or underlying constructs of UML were -- whether it was UML 1.4 or 2.0. BPMN based on UML would not have been accepted and would have failed.

I do agree that BPMN and UML should be harmonized, especially now that BPMN is in the OMG. But this harmonization should be done carefully. It should be done to enhance the capabilities of UML, thereby reducing the business/IT gap. But it should not damage the reputation or acceptability of BPMN in the business community. Thus, it is hard to say when or how a harmonization of BPMN and UML will occur.

On a more picayune note, the term activity is used generically in BPMN. Both processes and tasks are activities. Thus, in your model, a BPMN process maps to an activity. Beyond that, I'll note that no matter what terms we could have chosen for any element of BPMN, we would have confused or offended one or more community of users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francis,</p>
<p>Thanks for the&nbsp;article.</p>
<p>These types of discussions are useful. I have a couple of&nbsp;comments.</p>
<p><span class="caps">BPMN</span> was not strictly a front-end for <span class="caps">BPML</span>/<span class="caps">BPEL</span>. We specifically decided not to create an execution language notation. <span class="caps">BPMN</span> was intended to be a generic way to define and communicate process models. At the same time, enough detail was included (but not required) so that it could be mapped to <span class="caps">BPEL</span>. Thus, we did not have a pure <span class="caps">IT</span> approach. The approach was two-pronged to bridge the traceability gap between process modeling and process execution. But business <span class="caps">POV</span> was considered key to the success of <span class="caps">BPMN</span>. Just reading the spec, however, might lead one to see the <span class="caps">IT</span> side of it as being&nbsp;dominant.</p>
<p>This leads to why we did not just use (and perhaps extend) <span class="caps">UML</span> Activity diagrams. <span class="caps">UML</span>, whether deserved or not, was not acceptable in business process modeling communities. It didn&#8217;t matter what the capabilities or underlying constructs of <span class="caps">UML</span> were&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;whether it was <span class="caps">UML</span> 1.4 or 2.0. <span class="caps">BPMN</span> based on <span class="caps">UML</span> would not have been accepted and would have&nbsp;failed.</p>
<p>I do agree that <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">UML</span> should be harmonized, especially now that <span class="caps">BPMN</span> is in the <span class="caps">OMG</span>. But this harmonization should be done carefully. It should be done to enhance the capabilities of <span class="caps">UML</span>, thereby reducing the business/<span class="caps">IT</span> gap. But it should not damage the reputation or acceptability of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> in the business community. Thus, it is hard to say when or how a harmonization of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> and <span class="caps">UML</span> will&nbsp;occur.</p>
<p>On a more picayune note, the term activity is used generically in <span class="caps">BPMN</span>. Both processes and tasks are activities. Thus, in your model, a <span class="caps">BPMN</span> process maps to an activity. Beyond that, I&#8217;ll note that no matter what terms we could have chosen for any element of <span class="caps">BPMN</span>, we would have confused or offended one or more community of&nbsp;users.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Ip</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-1547</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Ip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 12:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-1547</guid>
		<description>Creating a piece of software without a model is just like building a house without a set of blueprints! Tracking a cell phone in addtion to land-line phone is a new requirement, not a trivial change. You need to update not only the software code but also the database. Not everyone has a cell phone. In practical terms, there are several phone numbers to be tracked (e.g home phone, office phone, fax, and cell phone). Hand crafting code from a model of course is tedious and error prone. Technologies for generating codes from models are available on the market. Please read Ismael Ghalimi's article on BPM 2.0 about &lt;a href="http://itredux.com/blog/bpm-20/"&gt;Zero Code&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Creating a piece of software without a model is just like building a house without a set of blueprints! Tracking a cell phone in addtion to land-line phone is a new requirement, not a trivial change. You need to update not only the software code but also the database. Not everyone has a cell phone. In practical terms, there are several phone numbers to be tracked (e.g home phone, office phone, fax, and cell phone). Hand crafting code from a model of course is tedious and error prone. Technologies for generating codes from models are available on the market. Please read Ismael Ghalimi&#8217;s article on <span class="caps">BPM</span> 2.0 about <a href="http://itredux.com/blog/bpm-20/">Zero&nbsp;Code</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Practical Software</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-1521</link>
		<dc:creator>Practical Software</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 07:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-1521</guid>
		<description>Hi,

I think modelling may not be that good a practice for software. I guess we need to develop software that is more self-adjusting as the needs of the customer evolve. For example a customer may track only the phone number for a client today, but tomorrow the customer needs to track the mobile number as well. Such changes should be trivial to implement.

Another reason for the failure of modelling is the time it takes to convert from models to code is too long, and it is not a one to one conversion. Until that comes, I guess modelling will be more academic than practical. That is why even UML is given at the end of the project as an artifact of the project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I think modelling may not be that good a practice for software. I guess we need to develop software that is more self-adjusting as the needs of the customer evolve. For example a customer may track only the phone number for a client today, but tomorrow the customer needs to track the mobile number as well. Such changes should be trivial to&nbsp;implement.</p>
<p>Another reason for the failure of modelling is the time it takes to convert from models to code is too long, and it is not a one to one conversion. Until that comes, I guess modelling will be more academic than practical. That is why even <span class="caps">UML</span> is given at the end of the project as an artifact of the&nbsp;project.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilf Whattam</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-1511</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilf Whattam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 03:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-1511</guid>
		<description>Hi Francis,

Thank you for your response.

I have used System Architect and agree with your comment about CASE tools. IEF and ADW were superb, and I can only blame CA for burying them. My background is Industrial Engineering &#38; Operational Research, as well as Systems/Management Consulting. I find that many CASE tools have been perfectly adequate for business and systems analysis.

I don't believe that IE's shortcomings with respect to Object Modelling are in any way serious. IE can cope with any complexity of inheritance. That is all that is needed at the business modelling level. I'd be interested to know what specific shortcomings people believe that IE has at the level of business modellling! I am not religiously tied to any methodology either -- but I do find it tiresome when supposedly new methodologies merely rebrand or make claims that are rather trivial/unnecessary (e.g. Use Cases and the like). Maintaining continuity is much more valuable than shamming revolution.

This does not detract from my wholehearted appreciation of BPM. 

Regards

-Wilf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi&nbsp;Francis,</p>
<p>Thank you for your&nbsp;response.</p>
<p>I have used System Architect and agree with your comment about <span class="caps">CASE</span> tools. <span class="caps">IEF</span> and <span class="caps">ADW</span> were superb, and I can only blame <span class="caps">CA</span> for burying them. My background is Industrial Engineering <span class="amp">&amp;</span> Operational Research, as well as Systems/Management Consulting. I find that many <span class="caps">CASE</span> tools have been perfectly adequate for business and systems&nbsp;analysis.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe that <span class="caps">IE</span>&#8217;s shortcomings with respect to Object Modelling are in any way serious. <span class="caps">IE</span> can cope with any complexity of inheritance. That is all that is needed at the business modelling level. I&#8217;d be interested to know what specific shortcomings people believe that <span class="caps">IE</span> has at the level of business modellling! I am not religiously tied to any methodology either&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;but I do find it tiresome when supposedly new methodologies merely rebrand or make claims that are rather trivial/unnecessary (e.g. Use Cases and the like). Maintaining continuity is much more valuable than shamming&nbsp;revolution.</p>
<p>This does not detract from my wholehearted appreciation of&nbsp;<span class="caps">BPM</span>. </p>
<p>Regards</p>
<p>-Wilf</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Ip</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-1483</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Ip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 23:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-1483</guid>
		<description>Wilf,

To a certain extent, I agree with you. I am very familiar with all the CASE tools and Methodology (Navigator) that you mentioned. In addition, I've also used Excelerator (the first DOS based CASE tool that supports Structured Analysis and Structured Design) and System Architect for Enterprise Architecture Engineering. Unfortunately, most of these CASE tools are no longer in existence, with the exception of System Architect, now part of Telelogic's product offerings. System Architect is the standard CASE tool for DoD's (Department of Defense) DoDAF.

It is interesting to know that someone still practices Information Engineering for almost 20 years. Throughout my 25 years in Management Consulting, I have mentored Application Architects, Data Architects, and Technical Architects in many of my consulting assignments using various methodologies and CASE tools. Personally, I have no preference for any particular methodology or CASE tool. Each one always misses something! In architecting complex systems, process and system simulation becomes an essential tool, which System Architect also supports, but not as sophisticated as the tools used in OR (Operations Research). By the way, IE doesn't support Object Modelling, which is the de facto paradigm for current Software Engineering practices.

-Francis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilf,</p>
<p>To a certain extent, I agree with you. I am very familiar with all the <span class="caps">CASE</span> tools and Methodology (Navigator) that you mentioned. In addition, I&#8217;ve also used Excelerator (the first <span class="caps">DOS</span> based <span class="caps">CASE</span> tool that supports Structured Analysis and Structured Design) and System Architect for Enterprise Architecture Engineering. Unfortunately, most of these <span class="caps">CASE</span> tools are no longer in existence, with the exception of System Architect, now part of Telelogic&#8217;s product offerings. System Architect is the standard <span class="caps">CASE</span> tool for DoD&#8217;s (Department of Defense)&nbsp;DoDAF.</p>
<p>It is interesting to know that someone still practices Information Engineering for almost 20 years. Throughout my 25 years in Management Consulting, I have mentored Application Architects, Data Architects, and Technical Architects in many of my consulting assignments using various methodologies and <span class="caps">CASE</span> tools. Personally, I have no preference for any particular methodology or <span class="caps">CASE</span> tool. Each one always misses something! In architecting complex systems, process and system simulation becomes an essential tool, which System Architect also supports, but not as sophisticated as the tools used in <span class="caps">OR</span> (Operations Research). By the way, <span class="caps">IE</span> doesn&#8217;t support Object Modelling, which is the de facto paradigm for current Software Engineering&nbsp;practices.</p>
<p>-Francis</p>
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		<title>By: Wilf Whattam</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-1481</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilf Whattam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 23:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-1481</guid>
		<description>My experience has been Information Engineering for over 20 years.  Of course, now I am having to deal to the terminology of UML -- which is largely a rebranding of old ideas, rather than anything brand new.

I object to you branding IE as being data oriented. It was, and is a complete powerful methodology, incorporating the following techniques:

- Entity Relationship Modelling
- Function/Process Decomposition
- Business Event Modelling
- Entity Life History Modeling
- Process Dependency Modelling
- Process Views
- Process Logic
- and more...

It is impossible to be just data or process oriented and do a sensible, thorough job of business analysis. You may be familiar with IEF (CASE tool), IEM, and with ADW (CASE tool) and Navigator (from Ernst &#38; Young), which covered all these techniques in an integrated way.

I am enthusiastic about BPMN, but once again, it is nothing new. It is identical to Process Dependency Modelling, but with the capability to formally depict all those things (conditionality, multiplicity, exclusivity, multifarious event types, etc.) that we could do only through manual representations previously. Also, BPMN has relevance for design and development capability -- but as a Business Analyst I have no specific interest in this.

Regards

-Wilf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience has been Information Engineering for over 20 years.  Of course, now I am having to deal to the terminology of <span class="caps">UML</span>&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;which is largely a rebranding of old ideas, rather than anything brand&nbsp;new.</p>
<p>I object to you branding <span class="caps">IE</span> as being data oriented. It was, and is a complete powerful methodology, incorporating the following&nbsp;techniques:</p>
<p>- Entity Relationship Modelling<br />
- Function/Process Decomposition<br />
- Business Event Modelling<br />
- Entity Life History Modeling<br />
- Process Dependency Modelling<br />
- Process Views<br />
- Process Logic<br />
- and&nbsp;more&#8230;</p>
<p>It is impossible to be just data or process oriented and do a sensible, thorough job of business analysis. You may be familiar with <span class="caps">IEF</span> (<span class="caps">CASE</span> tool), <span class="caps">IEM</span>, and with <span class="caps">ADW</span> (<span class="caps">CASE</span> tool) and Navigator (from Ernst <span class="amp">&amp;</span> Young), which covered all these techniques in an integrated&nbsp;way.</p>
<p>I am enthusiastic about <span class="caps">BPMN</span>, but once again, it is nothing new. It is identical to Process Dependency Modelling, but with the capability to formally depict all those things (conditionality, multiplicity, exclusivity, multifarious event types, etc.) that we could do only through manual representations previously. Also, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> has relevance for design and development capability&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;but as a Business Analyst I have no specific interest in&nbsp;this.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
<p>-Wilf</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Ip</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-491</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Ip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 15:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-491</guid>
		<description>Lee,

Thanks for the compliment. Both of you and your thesis supervisor are correct given the current states of UML and BPMN. Let me explain. At the time when BPMN was conceived, UML modeling elements were primarily for showing 'static' associations or relationships between components and classes. Only 'sequence' and 'activity' diagrams support temporal and dynamic aspects of components and classes at a rudimentary level. It is virtually impossible to map two incompatible model (i.e. sequence and activity) elements to BPEL. Thus BPMN was born. 

Currently, there is a disconnect between UML and BPMN as they belong to two different Domain Task Forces within OMG. Personally, I prefer to roll BPMN into UML under one Domain Task Force. The benefit of doing so is that UML will be the only modeling language that supports Requirements Engineering, Systems Engineering, Knowledge Engineering, Software Engineering, Hardware Engineering and other Engineering disciplines for better enterprise management in terms of agility and innovation of processes, products, and services.

I hope that the above answers your question fully. If you have further questions, please feel free to let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee,</p>
<p>Thanks for the compliment. Both of you and your thesis supervisor are correct given the current states of <span class="caps">UML</span> and <span class="caps">BPMN</span>. Let me explain. At the time when <span class="caps">BPMN</span> was conceived, <span class="caps">UML</span> modeling elements were primarily for showing &#8217;static&#8217; associations or relationships between components and classes. Only &#8217;sequence&#8217; and &#8216;activity&#8217; diagrams support temporal and dynamic aspects of components and classes at a rudimentary level. It is virtually impossible to map two incompatible model (i.e. sequence and activity) elements to <span class="caps">BPEL</span>. Thus <span class="caps">BPMN</span> was&nbsp;born. </p>
<p>Currently, there is a disconnect between <span class="caps">UML</span> and <span class="caps">BPMN</span> as they belong to two different Domain Task Forces within <span class="caps">OMG</span>. Personally, I prefer to roll <span class="caps">BPMN</span> into <span class="caps">UML</span> under one Domain Task Force. The benefit of doing so is that <span class="caps">UML</span> will be the only modeling language that supports Requirements Engineering, Systems Engineering, Knowledge Engineering, Software Engineering, Hardware Engineering and other Engineering disciplines for better enterprise management in terms of agility and innovation of processes, products, and&nbsp;services.</p>
<p>I hope that the above answers your question fully. If you have further questions, please feel free to let me&nbsp;know.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Provoost</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-485</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Provoost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-485</guid>
		<description>First of all, thanks for the great article! I have a question:

During one meeting with my supervisors for my master's thesis, we discussed the real added value of BPMN over UML. I argued that it is obviously useful to use BPMN over UML because we can generate BPEL code from it, and perhaps do some round-trip engineering. The point of view of one of my supervisors was that we can do most of that stuff with UML as well. I'm not an expert in the field of BPMN (still learning), but I think he has a point. Why didn't we extend the current UML language to fit in the SOA story for instance? Most of the people in the software industry are already familiar iwth UML, so... ? What is your point of view on this matter? What are the strong arguments why a new language was invented instead of extending UML?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, thanks for the great article! I have a&nbsp;question:</p>
<p>During one meeting with my supervisors for my master&#8217;s thesis, we discussed the real added value of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> over <span class="caps">UML</span>. I argued that it is obviously useful to use <span class="caps">BPMN</span> over <span class="caps">UML</span> because we can generate <span class="caps">BPEL</span> code from it, and perhaps do some round-trip engineering. The point of view of one of my supervisors was that we can do most of that stuff with <span class="caps">UML</span> as well. I&#8217;m not an expert in the field of <span class="caps">BPMN</span> (still learning), but I think he has a point. Why didn&#8217;t we extend the current <span class="caps">UML</span> language to fit in the <span class="caps">SOA</span> story for instance? Most of the people in the software industry are already familiar iwth <span class="caps">UML</span>, so&#8230; ? What is your point of view on this matter? What are the strong arguments why a new language was invented instead of extending&nbsp;<span class="caps">UML</span>?</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Ip</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-458</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Ip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 22:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-458</guid>
		<description>Jeanne,

Thanks for the correction.

It looks like business users will have to deal with a plethora of incompatible models. This also means that the Activity diagram in UML will compete with BPMN. The question is why does the IT industry create so many incompatible gadgets in independent silos? I would suggest that the architectural board of OMG launch a program to consolidate all similar activities and a chief architect be appointed to oversee all architectural efforts in all Domain Task Groups. This is to ensure and enforce that all DTG activities will be in harmony with one another, without contradictions and duplications.

It won't be long before business users get frustrated, revolt, and find the simplest and cheapest solutions. That is, outsource all back-end computing and data processing activities, like in the 50's and 60's, to time-sharing bureaus! With virtualization and grid computing, IBM and EDS will be glad to comply!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeanne,</p>
<p>Thanks for the&nbsp;correction.</p>
<p>It looks like business users will have to deal with a plethora of incompatible models. This also means that the Activity diagram in <span class="caps">UML</span> will compete with <span class="caps">BPMN</span>. The question is why does the <span class="caps">IT</span> industry create so many incompatible gadgets in independent silos? I would suggest that the architectural board of <span class="caps">OMG</span> launch a program to consolidate all similar activities and a chief architect be appointed to oversee all architectural efforts in all Domain Task Groups. This is to ensure and enforce that all <span class="caps">DTG</span> activities will be in harmony with one another, without contradictions and&nbsp;duplications.</p>
<p>It won&#8217;t be long before business users get frustrated, revolt, and find the simplest and cheapest solutions. That is, outsource all back-end computing and data processing activities, like in the 50&#8217;s and 60&#8217;s, to time-sharing bureaus! With virtualization and grid computing, <span class="caps">IBM</span> and <span class="caps">EDS</span> will be glad to&nbsp;comply!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeanne Baker</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-457</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeanne Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 20:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-457</guid>
		<description>Francis,

You wrote: "Now that the work on BPMN has been folded into the UML working group at the OMG, it is hoped that UML will evolve into a more robust and simplified modeling language."
 
The premise is incorrect.  BPMN has not been folded into the UML working group at OMG.  Both tasks forces operate independently. Neither graphical language is designed to replace the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francis,</p>
<p>You wrote: &#8220;Now that the work on <span class="caps">BPMN</span> has been folded into the <span class="caps">UML</span> working group at the <span class="caps">OMG</span>, it is hoped that <span class="caps">UML</span> will evolve into a more robust and simplified modeling&nbsp;language.&#8221;</p>
<p>The premise is incorrect.  <span class="caps">BPMN</span> has not been folded into the <span class="caps">UML</span> working group at <span class="caps">OMG</span>.  Both tasks forces operate independently. Neither graphical language is designed to replace the&nbsp;other.</p>
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		<title>By: Ismael Ghalimi</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-451</link>
		<dc:creator>Ismael Ghalimi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 18:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-451</guid>
		<description>Steve,

Your assumption is correct, BPMN was originally developed for BPML.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Your assumption is correct, <span class="caps">BPMN</span> was originally developed for&nbsp;<span class="caps">BPML</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Hoffman</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hoffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-446</guid>
		<description>I'm pretty sure that BPMN was originally created as the visual (graphical) front-end for BPML (Business Process Modeling Language) and the BPEL "binding" was only created after BPEL overtook BPML in terms of market acceptance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure that <span class="caps">BPMN</span> was originally created as the visual (graphical) front-end for <span class="caps">BPML</span> (Business Process Modeling Language) and the <span class="caps">BPEL</span> &#8220;binding&#8221; was only created after <span class="caps">BPEL</span> overtook <span class="caps">BPML</span> in terms of market&nbsp;acceptance.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Raymond Carpenter</title>
		<link>http://itredux.com/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/comment-page-1/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Raymond Carpenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://itredux.com/blog/2006/02/28/business-user-perspective-on-uml-bpmn-and-bpms/#comment-438</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for a very nice summary of a variety of analysis and design approaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for a very nice summary of a variety of analysis and design&nbsp;approaches.</p>
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