Comments on: What is Wrong with BPM http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/ New Rules for a New IT World Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:17:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7-beta3 hourly 1 By: Enterprise Irregulars http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-52803 Enterprise Irregulars Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:32:42 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-52803 [...] Two weeks ago, a couple of independent BPM vendors announced plans... [...] […] Two weeks ago, a couple of independent BPM vendors announced plans… […]

]]> By: IT|Redux http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-51703 IT|Redux Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:12:42 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-51703 [...] 3. By raising the abstraction level even higher, the BPM vendor gains a sexy tool that is great for sales presentations, but makes it even more difficult upon its professional services resources—remember, customers rarely implement processes themselves, as described in this past article—to actually implement executable business processes. Where you already had two levels (graphical notation and code), you now have three (graphical notation for business analysts, graphical notation for technical people, code). Synchronization and dependence tracking is hard enough with two levels, and that’s the reason why Intalio opted for a Zero Code, single level approach. Three makes it just impossible. Newton’s three laws of motion work well with one or two bodies, but as soon as you get three, you end up having to solve complex differential equations that are best handled by chaos theory. Well, BPM follows similar rules, and when you get from one, to two, then three levels of abstractions, everything falls apart. [...] […] 3. By raising the abstraction level even higher, the BPM vendor gains a sexy tool that is great for sales presentations, but makes it even more difficult upon its professional services resources—remember, customers rarely implement processes themselves, as described in this past article—to actually implement executable business processes. Where you already had two levels (graphical notation and code), you now have three (graphical notation for business analysts, graphical notation for technical people, code). Synchronization and dependence tracking is hard enough with two levels, and that’s the reason why Intalio opted for a Zero Code, single level approach. Three makes it just impossible. Newton’s three laws of motion work well with one or two bodies, but as soon as you get three, you end up having to solve complex differential equations that are best handled by chaos theory. Well, BPM follows similar rules, and when you get from one, to two, then three levels of abstractions, everything falls apart. […]

]]> By: Ismael Ghalimi http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-50114 Ismael Ghalimi Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:52:15 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-50114 Luis, I agree with your analysis. Regarding your question, yes, I can see why Intalio|BPMS would deliver better results. I would invoke two reasons: The first is technical, and due to the fact that Intalio|BPMS is based on a <a href="http://www.intalio.com/news/bpm-20-blog-post/?post=2006/05/01" rel="nofollow">Zero Code</a> development approach. The less code you have to write, the easier it gets to maintain complex processes. The second is practical, and due to the fact that customers use our product directly, instead of relying on services provided by the vendor. Doing so, they have more skin in the game, and their success rate tends to go up. Best regards -Ismael Luis,

I agree with your analysis.

Regarding your question, yes, I can see why Intalio|BPMS would deliver better results. I would invoke two reasons: The first is technical, and due to the fact that Intalio|BPMS is based on a Zero Code development approach. The less code you have to write, the easier it gets to maintain complex processes. The second is practical, and due to the fact that customers use our product directly, instead of relying on services provided by the vendor. Doing so, they have more skin in the game, and their success rate tends to go up.

Best regards
 -Ismael

]]> By: Luis Bender http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49657 Luis Bender Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:20:57 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49657 Ismael, The scenario you described is not exclusive to BPM software, it may also be applied to implementations of ERP, CRM, and many other software packages. When you have too much customization in a BPM (or ERP, or CRM) project, you probably are in one of the two following situations: 1. You choose the wrong tool to address your process needs. 2. Your implementation methodology is flawed, and you're not driving the project by the best cost-benefit decisions. Anyway, I can't see why choosing Intalio's BPMS instead of one from it's competitors Appian, Savvion, Lombardi, or Pegasystems would increase the success rate so much. Can you? Best regards -Luis Bender Ismael,

The scenario you described is not exclusive to BPM software, it may also be applied to implementations of ERP, CRM, and many other software packages. When you have too much customization in a BPM (or ERP, or CRM) project, you probably are in one of the two following situations:

1. You choose the wrong tool to address your process needs.
2. Your implementation methodology is flawed, and you’re not driving the project by the best cost-benefit decisions.

Anyway, I can’t see why choosing Intalio’s BPMS instead of one from it’s competitors Appian, Savvion, Lombardi, or Pegasystems would increase the success rate so much. Can you?

Best regards
-Luis Bender

]]> By: Francis Ip http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49129 Francis Ip Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:44:44 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49129 Ismael, I will, when the new version of Intalio|BPMS comes out of Beta. I will evaluate the mapper, the rule engine, the designer, the simulator, the activity monitor, and also the help in designer, it there is one. If they are as good as you claim, I will definitely use them, instead of Protege 2000, to build the enterprise ontology and the knowledge base of EARN. In the meantime, I am going to make assumptions about the capabilities of each component in the BPMS, and articulate a conceptual architecture on building a "dynamic" EARN. Best regards -Francis Ismael,

I will, when the new version of Intalio|BPMS comes out of Beta. I will evaluate the mapper, the rule engine, the designer, the simulator, the activity monitor, and also the help in designer, it there is one. If they are as good as you claim, I will definitely use them, instead of Protege 2000, to build the enterprise ontology and the knowledge base of EARN.

In the meantime, I am going to make assumptions about the capabilities of each component in the BPMS, and articulate a conceptual architecture on building a “dynamic” EARN.

Best regards
 -Francis

]]> By: Ismael Ghalimi http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49088 Ismael Ghalimi Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:38:23 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49088 Dian, Even though the project with the Animal Health Service required a fair amount of system-to-system messaging, I would not reduce it to just that. In fact, they also had to develop thousands of human workflows, with fairly complex user interfaces for them. And as far as deployment time is concerned, it's largely due to the fact that we're dealing there with the largest BPM deployment ever attempted, for any product I know (250,000 process steps, 100,000 users). Most of our projects are completed within weeks or months typically. Best regards -Ismael Dian,

Even though the project with the Animal Health Service required a fair amount of system-to-system messaging, I would not reduce it to just that. In fact, they also had to develop thousands of human workflows, with fairly complex user interfaces for them. And as far as deployment time is concerned, it’s largely due to the fact that we’re dealing there with the largest BPM deployment ever attempted, for any product I know (250,000 process steps, 100,000 users). Most of our projects are completed within weeks or months typically.

Best regards
 -Ismael

]]> By: Ismael Ghalimi http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49087 Ismael Ghalimi Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:34:12 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49087 James, System Integrators tend to be the most vocal among our customers, but end-users have no problem sharing the love. For more feedback from customers, you can take a look at this <a href="http://www.intalio.com/customers/quotes/" rel="nofollow">list of quotes</a>. You will find many more end-users there. Best regards -Ismael James,

System Integrators tend to be the most vocal among our customers, but end-users have no problem sharing the love. For more feedback from customers, you can take a look at this list of quotes. You will find many more end-users there.

Best regards
 -Ismael

]]> By: Ismael Ghalimi http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49086 Ismael Ghalimi Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:32:25 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49086 h.o.s.a.m.r.e.d. I full agree with you. Code gets in the way of agility. <a href="http://www.intalio.com/news/bpm-20-blog-post/?post=2006/05/01" rel="nofollow">Zero Code</a> is the answer. Best regards -Ismael h.o.s.a.m.r.e.d.

I full agree with you. Code gets in the way of agility. Zero Code is the answer.

Best regards
 -Ismael

]]> By: Ismael Ghalimi http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49085 Ismael Ghalimi Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:29:30 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49085 Francis, You might be interested to learn that <a href="http://www.intalio.com/products/designer/" rel="nofollow">Intalio|Designer</a> has the exact same mapper as Microsoft BizTalk's. And as far as the development of interfaces is concerned, for both process-to-system interfaces as well as process-to-human ones, you can design them without having to write a single line of code using our product. I think you should really take a look at it. Best regards -Ismael Francis,

You might be interested to learn that Intalio|Designer has the exact same mapper as Microsoft BizTalk’s. And as far as the development of interfaces is concerned, for both process-to-system interfaces as well as process-to-human ones, you can design them without having to write a single line of code using our product. I think you should really take a look at it.

Best regards
 -Ismael

]]> By: Todd Biske http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49073 Todd Biske Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:29:49 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49073 [...] The second post that caught my eye was Ismael Ghalimi’s post... [...] […] The second post that caught my eye was Ismael Ghalimi’s post… […]

]]> By: Dian Schaffhauser http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49040 Dian Schaffhauser Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:30:30 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49040 Here's a <a href="http://www.bpmenterprise.com/content/c070129a.asp">case study</a> that we recently ran on BPMEnterprise.com about an Intalio customer—the Animal Health Service in central Netherlands. In that situation, it's more of a message management system. Interestingly, with 3 years into the effort, the organization has another 2 years to go, they believe, before they'll be fully moved onto the Intalio platform. Here’s a case study that we recently ran on BPMEnterprise.com about an Intalio customer—the Animal Health Service in central Netherlands. In that situation, it’s more of a message management system. Interestingly, with 3 years into the effort, the organization has another 2 years to go, they believe, before they’ll be fully moved onto the Intalio platform.

]]> By: h.o.s.a.m.r.e.d. http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-49014 h.o.s.a.m.r.e.d. Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:52:35 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-49014 Hi, Interesting topic. I have recent experience in the BPM field, using FileNet. For a customer in the Gulf, the project was going well initially. But after the customer saw it and used the workflow, they started a development cycle to enhance their processes. This required changes in the process design and in the code, because the solution provided links from the workflow design to Java API calls. My point is the following: when a customer makes first use of BPM, you should expect that your project will require future enhancements, for both processes and the customer's business. Hi,

Interesting topic. I have recent experience in the BPM field, using FileNet. For a customer in the Gulf, the project was going well initially. But after the customer saw it and used the workflow, they started a development cycle to enhance their processes. This required changes in the process design and in the code, because the solution provided links from the workflow design to Java API calls.

My point is the following: when a customer makes first use of BPM, you should expect that your project will require future enhancements, for both processes and the customer’s business.

]]> By: James Governor http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-48499 James Governor Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:13:32 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-48499 Ismael, One thing that strikes me with your list is that it's quite consulting/IT services led. What about end-user customers? Ismael,

One thing that strikes me with your list is that it’s quite consulting/IT services led.

What about end-user customers?

]]> By: Francis Ip http://itredux.com/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/comment-page-1/#comment-47570 Francis Ip Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:11:11 +0000 http://itredux.com/blog/2007/02/16/what-is-wrong-with-bpm/#comment-47570 BPMS is still in its infancy. It has a long way to go before it can measure up to a SCADA (Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition) system that controls real-time processes like manufacturing, intelligent building (air purification, lighting, temperature, security, access, power, etc.), and the like. Missing from the current BPMS is a key element—interfaces to interoperate with other systems. An interface is an elementary systems engineering concept that all engineers should know, if one claims to be a software engineer or architect. The current BPMN is a close system that provides no means to define interfaces. This is the key reason why a lot of underlying codes are needed to make a BPMS work. The customization of interfaces is a typical activity that the object-oriented approach was supposed to solve. It looks like the practices of the 60's prevail, even with structured and object-oriented approaches. The same old problem of writing custom code begs for future maintenance work when a new version of software is released. Will IT people ever learn? Even though BizTalk doesn't support BPMN, but it has a mapper with which an analyst can define interfaces for interoperating with other systems, including EDI, which is missing in many other BPMS. BPMS is still in its infancy. It has a long way to go before it can measure up to a SCADA (Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition) system that controls real-time processes like manufacturing, intelligent building (air purification, lighting, temperature, security, access, power, etc.), and the like.

Missing from the current BPMS is a key element—interfaces to interoperate with other systems. An interface is an elementary systems engineering concept that all engineers should know, if one claims to be a software engineer or architect. The current BPMN is a close system that provides no means to define interfaces. This is the key reason why a lot of underlying codes are needed to make a BPMS work.

The customization of interfaces is a typical activity that the object-oriented approach was supposed to solve. It looks like the practices of the 60’s prevail, even with structured and object-oriented approaches. The same old problem of writing custom code begs for future maintenance work when a new version of software is released. Will IT people ever learn?

Even though BizTalk doesn’t support BPMN, but it has a mapper with which an analyst can define interfaces for interoperating with other systems, including EDI, which is missing in many other BPMS.

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